I grew up playing rummy (Michigan, or 500 Rum) and regarding mah-jongg as an exotic tile game that I didn't know the first thing about. Then, with the release of Hong Kong Mah-Jong Pro in the late 80s or so, I "discovered" mah-jongg with the help of my computer. When I did, I ended up saying to myself, "Huh? This is just a glorified rummy game. What's so special about it?" (Nevertheless, I got hooked on the game and kept playing it avidly until a computer upgrade rendered it obsolete for my home system.)
Recently, at www.pagat.com, I read a brief history of rummy, which says that it's probably of Chinese origin. So, now I'm wondering if there is indeed an historical connection between mah-jongg and rummy. The similarity is so striking, there must be. But I've never heard anyone come right out and say it.
So, for those out there who've played both mah-jongg and rummy, here are a few discussion questions. Just things I've wondered about lately.
1. Do you think mah-jongg and rummy do share a common point of origin?
2. Do you consider either game superior to the other in any way? Or are they just two choices among many?
3. If you've played both games numerous times, do you find that your enthusiasm for one lasts longer than for the other? If so, why do you think that is?
4. It seems the mah-jongg set is used for basically just one kind of game (though it has many variations and in recent years has been popularized via MJ solitaire), whereas standard playing cards are employed for a wide variety of different games. Why do you suppose that is? Is it a plus or a minus in your opinion, or does it matter?
5. The mah-jongg tiles are aesthetically appealing; and for some, that seems to be the main attraction. OTOH, a deck of cards fits in a shirt pocket, is easier to shuffle, and takes up less table space. Then again, mah-jongg can be played outdoors, since the tiles stand up easily to wind and rain. Do any of these factors matter to you?
6. Mah-jongg--like many things of Chinese origin--is rumored to be ancient. Do you think that was just a marketing ploy, or is there something to it? How far back in history can mah-jongg really be traced?
--P. C.,
Minnesota
Patrick Carroll <p55carroll@aol.compliant> wrote:
> 1. Do you think mah-jongg and rummy do share a common point ofI would have to research into the origins of rummy. Of course there is, as you say, a great similarity between them. But I don't have an opinion regarding a common point of origin since I don't have enough data.
> 2. Do you consider either game superior to the other in any way? OrRummy is superior for getting in quickly, and teaching to anyone with a few moments and a desire to play cards, even kids. Mah-Jongg is superior for a deeper more engrossing weekly activity with grownups.
> 3. If you've played both games numerous times, do you find that yourI have played mah-jongg far more than I have played rummy. I have more enthusiasm for mah-jongg, but am happy to play rummy with folks who don't have the patience to learn mah-jongg.
> 4. It seems the mah-jongg set is used for basically just one kind ofThere are actually many games that can be played with the tiles -- just last December a mah-jongg pro in Tokyo showed me a few of them. More people own playing cards than own mah-jongg sets. Playing cards are familiar and accessible. Mah-Jongg sets are exotic and foreign. Some people eagerly embrace things exotic and foreign, but many people are only comfortable with things familiar and accessible. So games played with cards are more widely known than games played with mah-jongg tiles.
Add to that the fact that the very name of the tiles is synonymous with the primary game played with them. Contrastingly, when you consider playing cards, what is the "main" game played with those? Ask ten people and you'll get eight or nine different answers.
> 5. The mah-jongg tiles are aesthetically appealing; and for some,The expense of a mah-jongg set is the most important factor for most, I think. Playing cards are cheap, and available at the corner drugstore. To even find mah-jongg sets is a problem for many (I have seen numerous posts from folks bewildered about where to find them).
> 6. Mah-jongg--like many things of Chinese origin--is rumored to beMah-Jongg can be traced back no farther than the 1850s. Chinese literature is extensive -- all facets of Chinese life are very well documented, going back thousands of years. And no mentions of mah- jongg (mah cheuk) occur until the mid-19th century. According to the mah-jongg museum in Chiba, Japan, mah-jongg can be traced to a Chinese man in the 1850s. I don't have his name at my fingertips at the moment. Writing this, I am amazed that I haven't committed his name to memory yet.
Very interesting topic, Patrick!
Tom
On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:17:34 GMT, Tom Sloper <tsloper@activision.com> wrote:
>Patrick Carroll <p55carroll@aol.compliant> wrote:It's hard to make a conjecture either. The games look similar, but the core concept isn't a hard one to dream up by anybody.
>> 2. Do you consider either game superior to the other in any way? OrA fair assessment, Tom.
>> 4. It seems the mah-jongg set is used for basically just one kind ofAnother reason is probably that playing cards have a much longer history than mahjong tiles.
In the East, mahjong sets are neither exotic nor foreign ^_^ , but games using the tiles other than mahjong proper are not common.
>> 5. The mah-jongg tiles are aesthetically appealing; and for some,Here, a set goes for under HK$100 (less than $13).
>According to theI can't remember foreign names in a language I don't know, either.
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I had written:
>>The expense of a mah-jongg set is the most important factor for most, IAlan replied:
> Here, a set goes for under HK$100 (less than $13).Yes. Here in Los Angeles, those cheap HK sets go for $35. That is the price of the cheapest HK sets I can find in L.A.'s Chinatown. But I have done a lot of research on sets here in L.A. -- most folks can't find them at all, if they don't know where to look.
I also wrote:
>>According to theAlan replied:
> I can't remember foreign names in a language I don't know, either.The name of the man whom, according to the Mah-Jongg Museum, invented the game of mah-jongg (inspired, perhaps, by the 40-card game Ma Tiao, which originated in the 16th century), is...
... drum roll, please...
... are you ready, mah-jongg world? ...
... Chin Yueng Yue.
According to the MAJAN HAKUBUTSUKAN DAIZUROKU ("Illustrated Book of the Mah-Jongg Museum," or literally translated "Mah-Jongg Museum Big Encyclopedia"), edited by the Mah-Jongg Museum (no author name), this is the man who invented mah-jongg in the mid-1800s. The game was apparently popular during the Tai Pin Rebellion of 1851-1864.
I am going to commit this name to long-term memory, and so should we all. Mr. Chin Yueng Yue is the great founder of the game to which this newsgroup is devoted. It is unknown how similar his rules were to what we now call "Chinese Classical," but hopefully further research will bear fruit. Perhaps the 1917 Japanese work, "Detailed Description of Mahjong," by Shou Kan Seki, would be not too dissimilar to the rules described by A. D. Millington. This 1917 work is the oldest known complete description of the game in Japanese; it predates J.P. Babcock's 1920 rules by 3 years. (Culin's writings in the 1890s don't provide complete rules, so far as I know to date.)
Cheers!
Tom
On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:17:34 GMT, Tom Sloper <tsloper@activision.com> wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>Playing cards areChildren are attracted by the set and want to know what game must be played with them. They are eager to play a game, only because they have seen the tiles. They wouldn't do that if the set was a common deck of playing cards.
>Add to that the fact that the very name of the tiles is synonymous withI have seen playing cards with the words 'bridge' and 'canasta' on the box. Usually we call them 'playing cards' but you might call them 'bridge cards'.
>Contrastingly, when you considerNowadays, it is bridge, without doubt. This is the only card game that has uniform rules all over the world and is known all over the world. However I say 'nowadays' since the cards are much older than the game, and originally they were not intended to play bridge,
--
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://members.home.nl/feiconater
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch
is offering too little and asking too much.
And what about bigger, more complex games in the rummy family--Canasta, for instance? Would Mah-jongg or Canasta make the better "engrossing weekly activity for grownups"?
--P. C.,
Minnesota
[Followups to rec.games.playing-cards]
Patrick Carroll <p55carroll@aol.compliant> wrote:
:>Rummy is superior for getting in quickly, and teaching to anyone with a
:>few moments and a desire to play cards, even kids. Mah-Jongg is
:>superior for a deeper more engrossing weekly activity with grownups.
: And what about bigger, more complex games in the rummy family--Canasta, for : instance? Would Mah-jongg or Canasta make the better "engrossing weekly : activity for grownups"?
I think Mah Jong and Canasta are quite equal as "intellectual activity", and it is mostly a matter of taste, which one you prefer. The major advantage of Canasta is team play. It is fun in itself, and it resolves "king making" problems, that appear more or less in any 3+ teams games. (However, the Japanese rule that only discarder pays, mostly resolves this problem.)
I suppose you need 100+ cards/tiles to make a good rummy-style game, and
thus MJ and Canasta are superior to any single deck rummy. You need the
feeling that there are "a lot" of cards/tiles to make the game
strategical as opposed to tactical, and spotting single
tiles/cards must not be the major issue in a rummy-style game.
--
http://www.helsinki.fi/%7ekorppi/ TUOMAS
Nevermore.
- the Raven
p55carroll@aol.compliant (Patrick Carroll) writes:
<snip for brevity>
Very interesting questions and views - thanks!
Just thought I might point out that you can get MJ in card form also -
quite cheaply. They go for $5.00 here im Amsterdam, which I feel is
reasonable.
Because there are more cards required than a 52 card 'normal' deck, it's
about twice the size of a 'normal' deck, but very convenient for taking
on (camping) vacations, etc.
Fpr my money, you can't beat playing with real MJ tiles though - it adds
to the atmosphere and the fun :)
Cheers!
Peter
--
Peter Gallagher, Amsterdam, Netherlands pega(at)xs4all(dot)nl " I used to finish every sentence I started, but now I just ...." --my sister, Christine
p55carroll@aol.compliant (Patrick Carroll) writes:
I forgot to mention that, regarding the age and origin of the game, many
people claim that the game goes back as far as Confucius (spelling?)
himeself(!) - Now there's a "marketing ploy" possibility :-)
Also, Jim May's excellent cybermuseum has information which indicates that
MJ as we know it today has it's origins in an ancient Chinese card game.
Cheers!
Peter
--
Peter Gallagher, Amsterdam, Netherlands pega(at)xs4all(dot)nl " I used to finish every sentence I started, but now I just ...." --my sister, Christine
Thanks for the replies so far. Good stuff!
Meanwhile, yet another thought has occurred to me: Rummy has the advantage of being easily adapted for play by anywhere from 2 to 7 or 8 players (though gin rummy is specifically a two-player game, with variants for three or four). To me, it has always seemed a great disadvantage of mah-jongg (and bridge, and some other games) that it's strictly a 4-player game.
Any opinions on this? I've glanced at 2-player and 3-player variants for mah-jongg in the bookstore. Do they work? Are any of them any good?
--P. C.,
Minnesota
Patrick Carroll wrote:
> To me, it has always seemed a great disadvantage of mah-jongg (andThe game is balanced best for 4 players, but the 3-player variants are still quite fun. One of the games taught me by the mah-jongg pro in Tokyo was the Japanese 3-player rules. Great lengths were gone to, to make the game balanced for 3 players.
As for 2-player, well, mah-jongg for 2 is better than no mah-jongg at all.
The solution, if you can't find any other players at all, is to play it on the computer.
Cheers
Tom
On 16 Jun 2000 15:35:11 GMT, p55carroll@aol.compliant (Patrick Carroll) wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>a great disadvantage of mah-jongg (and bridge, andIn my opinion it is very possible to play mahjong with 2, 3 5 or 6 players. The rules are the same. I found it rather boring with 2.
--
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://members.home.nl/feiconater
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch
is offering too little and asking too much.
p55carroll@aol.compliant (Patrick Carroll) wrote:
>I grew up playing rummy (Michigan, or 500 Rum) and regarding
mah-jongg as an
>exotic tile game that I didn't know the first thing about.
Then, with the
>release of Hong Kong Mah-Jong Pro in the late 80s or so, I
"discovered"
>mah-jongg with the help of my computer. When I did, I ended up
saying to
>myself, "Huh? This is just a glorified rummy game. What's so
special about
>it?" (Nevertheless, I got hooked on the game and kept playing
it avidly until
>a computer upgrade rendered it obsolete for my home system.)
[snipped]
Mah Jong is indeed ancient. whole kingdoms, not only fingers,
hands, and heads, have been lost over this game. It is really a
board version of battle for the people who played it. Hong Kong
made it popular to the world and in the early twenties and
thirties the rum runners and other seaboard scoundrels
popularized even more. My aunt has 75 year old game that is ivory
and bamboo, and is probably worth several hundred dollars. Ivory
sets are impossible to get legally anymore. I have a couple of
cheap plastic tile sets. For anyone who grew up on rummy, Mah
Jong is not too much harder to play. It is still a very popular
gambling game throughout the middle east and in all the china
towns world wide.
Ray
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Ray alphah <alphahNOalSPAM@nocharge.zzn.com.invalid> wrote:
> Mah Jong is indeed ancient.A hundred and fifty years is pretty old. But I don't know if I would say that something from the 1850s is "ancient." I have a couple of coins from then -- I think of them as "old" but not "ancient." But if my /neighbor/ was 150 years old, I would call /him/ "ancient." So it's a matter of perspective, I guess.
> whole kingdoms, not only fingers,I hadn't heard that before. I'm more interested in the "kingdoms" part (but I'm also interested in hearing any interesting story about "fingers, hands, and heads" lost over mah-jongg), so let's examine the history of China's wars between the 1850s (when mah-jongg was invented) and 1920 (when mah-jongg became very popular worldwide).
The Opium Wars were over before the 1850s when mah-jongg was invented by Chin Zheng Yue. The Tai Ping Rebellion was the first war in which mah-jongg was popular, but my history book does not mention mah-jongg as a cause of, nor as a means of prosecuting, that war. Then there was the Anglo-Chinese War. Again, no mention of mah-jongg. There may have been other wars involving China between then and 1899 (Boxer Rebellion) and 1911 (when the revolution ended the emperial dynasties). So I'm wondering which kingdoms you are referring to?
> Hong KongPerhaps Hong Kong was instrumental in introducing mah-jongg to some countries, but Shanghai was more important in bringing mah-jongg to Japan, America, and Europe. Brothers named White, living in Shanghai in the early 1900s, made the game popular among the foreign businessmen there. Hikosaku Nakawa was the first to bring sets to Japan (from what Chinese city I do not know), in 1909. In 1920, Shou Kan Seki wrote the first known Japanese-language mah-jongg manual, "Detailed Description of Mahjong," in Shanghai. And J.P. Babcock was the first to export sets to America, in 1920 (from Shanghai).
So, in my opinion, the city of Shanghai, not the city of Hong Kong, plays most prominently in the popularization of mah-jongg to the world.
> My aunt has 75 year old game that is ivoryAre you sure it's really ivory and not bone? To learn how to tell the difference, here are two websites:
http://members.aol.com/mahjongmuseum/ (click "Material Identification")
http://beachsite.com/majexchange/id.htm
Even bone sets of the proper age and condition can fetch several hundred dollars at auction.
Cheers!
Tom