There might not be a certain answer to this question, but I ask it anyway: How does one spell the word mahjong?
I have seen many different alternatives:
Mahjong mahjong
Mah-Jongg Mah-jongg mah-jongg
Mah Jong Mah jong mah jong
Mah Jongg Mah jongg mah jongg
Majong majong
Mah-Jong Mah-jong mah-jong
and possibly others. Is there any of these variants that is somehow the
correct one?
Is it different in English than in e.g. French or Dutch or German?
(Maybe only the capitalisation?)
Is there something like a pinyin romanisation/transliteration of the
Chinese word?
--
Jeppe Stig Nielsen, <URL:http://www.netby.net/Oest/Europa-Alle/jeppesn/>.
"Man ved jo aldrig, hvor godt en Mands Evner havde slaaet til, hvis han havde arbejdet paa en anden Maade, end det faldt ham naturligt."
- den danske matematiker Zeuthen om den danske matematiker Petersen
Hi Jeppe Stig Nielsen jeppesn@hotpop.com, you wrote:
>There might not be a certain answer to this question, but I ask itJeppe, I use the spelling "Mah-Jongg" or "mah-jongg". J. P. Babcock gave the game that spelling when he first imported sets to the United States.
>Is it different in English than in e.g. French or Dutch or German?
I'll have to let others answer that one.
>Is there something like a pinyin romanisation/transliteration of theI'll let others answer that one too, but I've heard that "mah cheuk" is the actual original term. The way I heard it, this means "clattering sparrow" and probably refers to the sound of the tiles.
Tom Sloper, Activision
Executive Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (wkdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (wkends)
The opinions expressed herein are those of the writer, not of Activision.
http://www.activision.com/games/dynasty
On 25 Oct 1999 00:18:11 GMT, actsearch@aol.com (Tom Sloper) wrote:
>>Is it different in English than in e.g. French or Dutch or German?In France it's "Mah-Jong".
--
Rene-Gilles Deberdt (Naoki), Lille, France
Kyodai Mahjongg 3D v10.21, http://kyodai.com/
Cyber Namida, http://kyodai.com/namida/
On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:59:02 +0200, Jeppe Stig Nielsen
<jeppesn@hotpop.com> wrote:
Jeppe,
We have recently had a thread about it (starting 18.8, 'mahjong, mah-jongg, mijang or...' Searching Deja you will find more about the subject.
| Visit the Internet Mahjong Newspaper
| http://www.mahjong-nl.com
| extensive website in Dutch and English
Tom Sloper schrieb:
> >Is it different in English than in e.g. French or Dutch or German?
>
> I'll have to let others answer that one.
>
In Germany: No, several of the spellings you compiled didn't show up to me, but I found no additional names. I prefer to write Mah-Jongg.
Greetings from the baltic sea
Harald
On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:59:02 +0200, Jeppe Stig Nielsen <jeppesn@hotpop.com> wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
> Mahjong mahjongI even do not know all these.
I have an English-language book that says Mah-Jung, with capital letters.
I disagree with capital letters, after all you do not play Chess or Checkers, do
you?
I know a little bit Dutch, so I can tell that it is usually mah-jong or mah-jongg in Dutch. In German the Word will certainly be capitalized, since the German Language capitalizes every Noun.
--
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://members.home.nl/taaleffect
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch
is offering too little and asking too much.
On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:59:02 +0200, Jeppe Stig Nielsen
<jeppesn@hotpop.com> wrote:
>Is there something like a pinyin romanisation/transliteration of the
>Chinese word?
In Cantonese Jyut6 Ping3 (which is different from Mainland China pinyin), it is (probably)
maa4 zoek3
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
(please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address)
Martin Rep wrote:
>
> On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:59:02 +0200, Jeppe Stig Nielsen
> <jeppesn@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
> >I have seen many different alternatives:
> >
> > Mahjong mahjong
>
> Jeppe,
>
> We have recently had a thread about it (starting 18.8, 'mahjong,
> mah-jongg, mijang or...' Searching Deja you will find more about the
> subject.
I wasn't aware of that but have now read that thread.
I can add the following to Harder's posting there:
It is true that the official/authoritative Danish dictionary ("Retskrivningsordbogen") does not list the word. But two other good works have:
mah-jong (Gyldendals Fremmedordbog (den røde)) with a dash
mah jong (Den Store Danske Encyklopædi) in two words
I agree with Feico Nater that the word does not have to be capitalized except for languages like German which capitalize every common noun (appellative).
--
Jeppe Stig Nielsen, <URL:http://www.netby.net/Oest/Europa-Alle/jeppesn/>.
"Man ved jo aldrig, hvor godt en Mands Evner havde slaaet til, hvis han havde arbejdet paa en anden Maade, end det faldt ham naturligt."
- den danske matematiker Zeuthen om den danske matematiker Petersen
On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 01:11:36 GMT, naoki@kyodai.com.no-spam (Naoki Haga) wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>In France it's "Mah-Jong".I have a French book that calls it mah-jongg, not capitalized.
--
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://members.home.nl/taaleffect
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch
is offering too little and asking too much.
On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:44:13 GMT, Feico Nater <feiconater@home.nl> wrote:
>On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 01:11:36 GMT, naoki@kyodai.com.no-spam (Naoki Haga) wrote inOh, we don't have any rule on the capitalization subject. It can be
"Mah-jong" or "mah-jong" or anything like that.
Oh, some books also write it "mahjong" ;-)
--
Rene-Gilles Deberdt (Naoki), Lille, France
Kyodai Mahjongg 3D v10.21, http://kyodai.com/
Cyber Namida, http://kyodai.com/namida/
[Finghín Ó Ceallaigh wrote]
> The price is the old pre-decimal system. 2 shillings and 6 pence (0.125
of a
> pound).
> In Ireland and the UK the decimal currency came in the early 1970's, 1971
I
> think. In Australia it was in 1966. I don't know about New Zealand, but
it
> can't be too hard to find out.
> Your booklet was obviously published before decimalisation. I hope that
> could be of some help.
Yes, thanks. I will have to look up the decimalisation question.
> Every book nowadays has a unique ISBN number printed on the back, does yourUnfortunately no.
Regards
Michael Stanwick
actsearch@aol.com (Tom Sloper) writes:
>>Is there something like a pinyin romanisation/transliteration of the
>>Chinese word?
In written Chinese, there are two names for the game. Each one has two characters, and both names start with the same character.
Here's the first one:
%%"
%,,,,,,,,,%%,,,,,,,%%,
%% ,,, ,,,
%% %% %%
%%,,,,%%,,%%,,,%%,,%%,
%% %% %%
%% %%%",, %%%%
%% ,%%% %% %"%% %
%" % %% %" %% "%,,
%% %" %% ," %% "%
% " %% %%
" %% %%
,,, %%" %,,
%% %% %%%,,,%%,
%% %% ,%",, ,%"
%% %% ,"",, " ,%"
%%"""%% " ,%"
%% ,,"" %%"
,,,,,,%% "" %% ,,
%% %% """""""""%%""""
%% %% ",, %%
,% %% %% %%
% %% %%
" %% ""%%"
In Pinyin Romanization, it is "ma2jiang4". The second name is similar,
but the second character is
%%"
%,, %% "",,
,%%" %% %,, "%%,
,%"" ,,%%,%%" ""
"" ,%%" ,
,,"" ,""" ,,
,%%"""""%%""""""""
,,"" %%,,,,,%%,,,,,,
%% %%
%%"""""%%""""""
%% %% ,,
%%"""""""""""""""""
In Pinyin, the name would be "ma2que4".
"ma2jiang4" is more common among Mandarin speakers; "ma2que4" is
more common among Cantonese speakers (although they don't
pronounce the characters "ma2que4", obviously -- they say
something like "mah cheuk", as Tom mentions above).
"ma2que4" also means "sparrow" (a particular species found near Southeast China). "ma2jiang4" has no other meaning besides the game. I don't agree with the theory that the sparrow sound is similar to the sounds of the tiles clacking together -- I think it's more likely that it was incorrectly confused by people who didn't remember the name of the game. This is corroborated by the fact that the Japanese name is clearly based on "ma2jiang4" and not "ma2que4".
"jiang4" meaning, literally, "general", and appears in many games. It is the main piece in Chinese Chess. It is the "Sho" in "Shogi" (aka Japanese Chess), which uses the character a LOT. It's also used in some circles to refer to the pair in a winning mahjong hand (although, to be fair, it is also called a "que4tou2" ("sparrowhead") by others -- come to think of it, this might be the source of the que4/jiang4 confusion). When I learned the game from my family "jiang4" was the name of the fan given when the pair was a 2, 5, or 8.
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu,
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
"Everyone is trying to CYA their butt!" -- my supervisor
Wei-Hwa Huang wrote:
>[...]
> Here's the first one:
>
> %%"
> %,,,,,,,,,%%,,,,,,,%%,
> %% ,,, ,,,
> %% %% %%
> %%,,,,%%,,%%,,,%%,,%%,
> %% %% %%
> %% %%%",, %%%%
> %% ,%%% %% %"%% %
> %" % %% %" %% "%,,
> %% %" %% ," %% "%
> % " %% %%
> " %% %%
>
> ,,, %%" %,,
> %% %% %%%,,,%%,
> %% %% ,%",, ,%"
> %% %% ,"",, " ,%"
> %%"""%% " ,%"
> %% ,,"" %%"
> ,,,,,,%% "" %% ,,
> %% %% """""""""%%""""
> %% %% ",, %%
> ,% %% %% %%
> % %% %%
> " %% ""%%"
>
> In Pinyin Romanization, it is "ma2jiang4".
This explains why the new Danish encyclopedia gives "majiang" as an alternative spelling of the entry "mah jong".
Do you have a program that writes the above ASCII characters, or are they hand-made?
--
Jeppe Stig Nielsen, <URL:http://www.netby.net/Oest/Europa-Alle/jeppesn/>.
"Man ved jo aldrig, hvor godt en Mands Evner havde slaaet til, hvis han havde arbejdet paa en anden Maade, end det faldt ham naturligt."
- den danske matematiker Zeuthen om den danske matematiker Petersen
Jeppe Stig Nielsen <jeppesn@hotpop.com> writes:
>Do you have a program that writes the above ASCII characters, or areThis is a bit off-topic ... but I use Jeffrey's Kanji Lookup at http://enterprise.dsi.crc.ca/cgi-bin/j-e/jis/kanji
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu,
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
In article <38138125.B17CDCD3@hotpop.com>,
Jeppe Stig Nielsen <jeppesn@hotpop.com> wrote:
>There might not be a certain answer to this question, but I ask it[table snipped]
Nice question, nice table.
As you have shown with your table, the variations of spelling
of MJ (here short for all variants) are due to three differences:
1. Different orthography, i.e. mah vs. ma
and jongg vs. jong
2. Capitalisation or no captialisation, e.g.
Mah-Jongg vs. mah-jongg
3. Hyphenation or separation into two words,
or writing MJ as one word: e.g.
mah-jongg vs. mah jongg vs. mahjong
And this my take on these three differences:
1. Spelling:
I vote for the spelling with "h" and double "g", e.g. mah-jongg, because this is the exact spelling with which this game has been introduced into the West. Babcock wrote it like that, and my Webster's even indicates that "mah-jongg" is an old trademark.
As for German there is no ambiguity. All the books, including the old ones from the 1920s, write "Mah-Jongg" -- but for one sorry looser who writes "Mah-Yongg"! ;-)
As to English, it has already been said that Babcock introduced the game with the spelling "mah-jongg", but many English books write "mah-jong", e.g. Robert Bell or R. F. Foster.
I'm not sure about French. I've only found "mah-jong" with one "g" in French dictionaries. Maybe this is the spelling with which the game was introduced into France.
There are certain variations. The German Duden lists "Ma-Jongg" next to "Mah-Jongg", and my Dictionary of Contemporary English has "mah-jong" next to "mah-jongg".
As I said, I vote for the original trademark spelling "mah-jongg".
The variations may be due to a certain urge for simplification or
to attempts to approach the spelling "mah-jongg" to the then usual
transscriptons of the original Chinese terms. I don't know.
Why did English and American authors start writing "mah-jong"
instead of "mah-jongg"? Did they try to avoid the copyrighted term
"mah-jongg"?
2. Capitalisation
Again, German orthography leaves little ambiguity here. Since
MJ is a noun, it has to be written with a capital letter, and if
the second part of the word is separated by hyphen or space,
then this has to begin with a capital as well.
E. g. "Mah-Jongg", "Mah Jongg" or "Mahjongg"
In English and French (and I believe in Dutch as well), it's the other way round. The usual way is to write MJ with lower-case letters, and this is certainly how it is listed in the dictionaries: "mah-jongg" or "mah-jong"
Capital letters are only used to mark a word, similar to using
italics, or on title pages. This is pretty much left to the discretion
of every single author or typographer.
E.g. Bell's Shire-booklet has "Mah-jong", but "MAH-JONG" or
"Mah-Jong" would have been equally correct for use on a title
page.
3. MJ as one or two words, with or without hyphen
The Chinese equivalent for MJ consists of two words, written
with two Chinese characters, so it's usual to show these two
components by writing MJ in two words, e.g. "mah jongg" or
"mah-jongg" insted of "mahjongg".
The hyphen is often used to connect those words in
transscriptions of Chinese that are forming a combined
meaning; this as a help for the Western reader.
E.g. ma que zhi pai = mah jongg playing cards
can be hyphenated
ma-que zhi-pai = mah-jongg playing-cards
to show the Western reader how the Chinese words
compare to the English translation. This is simply a
reading aid.
Since MJ stands for one single meaning, the game, in
Western languages, I think it should be hyphenated.
Frankly, the German orthography favours hyphenation,
so "Mah-Jongg" is hyphenated there without exception.
French and English dictionaries list MJ with hyphen as
well.
However, I've seen MJ written as two separate words
without hyphen in many cases. This may be due to the
fact that compounds in the English language can be
written with or without hyphen according to rules which
I myself have never been able to master. Somehow,
MJ seems to be seen as a compound instead of a single
expression by some American and English writers ...
However, I feel that the majority writes with hyphen.
>
> Mahjong mahjong
> Mah-Jongg Mah-jongg mah-jongg
> Mah Jong Mah jong mah jong
> Mah Jongg Mah jongg mah jongg
> Majong majong
> Mah-Jong Mah-jong mah-jong
I can add "Ma-Jongg" here, taken from the German Duden,
though I've to admit that I've never seen this variation been
used in descriptions of the game.
--
* Christian Joachim Hartmann
* <lukian@Null.net>
In article <7v1vru$nl0@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) wrote:
>In written Chinese, there are two names for the game. Each one has twoCheck <http://zhongwen.com/d/179/d194.htm>
...
>In Pinyin Romanization, it is "ma2jiang4" ...
<http://charts.apple.com/unihan/UnihanCache/Unihan/5C/5C07.gif>
...
>In Pinyin, the name would be "ma2que4".
<http://charts.apple.com/unihan/UnihanCache/Unihan/96/96C0.gif>
Hello!
Interesting stuff! I always thought that ma2jiang4 was an attempt
by the Mandarin speakers to approximate the pronounciation of
ma2que4 by the Cantonese, while at the same time trying to use
a term that was known from other games as well (here from Chinese
Chess/Chinese Chess Playing Cards).
What do you think of that?
Yes, the Japanese pronouce this game "mâjan" (maajan), but they
write it with the characters for Chinese ma2que4!
Got any explanation for that?
Again, I assume that the Japanese took both the characters (ma que)
and the pronounciation (ma jan[g]) from the South of China, where
the game originated.
>"jiang4" meaning, literally, "general", and appears in many games. It
>is the main piece in Chinese Chess. It is the "Sho" in "Shogi" (aka
>Japanese Chess), which uses the character a LOT.
Yes, an interesting parallel isn't it? But this makes it even more odd that the Japanese didn't use the "jiang4" character to write "mâjan", allthough they already used it to replace the 'Elephant' character in "xiang qi" (Chinese Chess).
>... It's (jiang4) also used in
>some circles to refer to the pair in a winning mahjong hand (although,
>to be fair, it is also called a "que4tou2" ("sparrowhead") by others --
>come to think of it, this might be the source of the que4/jiang4
>confusion).
Again, interesting stuff! Thanks for pointing this out to us.
Thinking of jiang4=General vs. ma2jiang4=mah-jongg, I
remember an early 20th c. deck of MJ playing-cards depicting
characters from 14th c. Chinese novel, among which are many
warriors, heroes, officers and generals.
This deck is quite well known and for example illustrated in Frederic Grunfeld's (ed.) "Games of the World", in the chapter on playing cards.
However, I don't know whether this deck was sufficiently well known in China to have left any impression on the name of the game itself.
--
* Christian Joachim Hartmann
* <lukian@Null.net>
What's the name of that MJ book in French?
On Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:41:45 -0400, DAVID H LI <davidli@erols.com> wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>What's the name of that MJ book in French?Le code des jeux
by Claude Aveline
Library Hachette, 1961
--
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://members.home.nl/taaleffect
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch
is offering too little and asking too much.
