Let me explain this further, Normally a triplet of wind count as a score only
if it happens to be the round or seat wind. We count a triplet of any wind as
a score, regardless of round or seat wind. Conversely, a winning hand without
any wind or dragon tiles normally has no point, but we count a point for NOT
having any "honor" tiles. Ditto with flowers. In effect there are no winning
hands without any points. You're guaranteed at least 2 points in any winning
hand, in addition to the base added automatically for winning. In short,
minimum score is 4 in our style of play, and there's no such thing as "zero
fan" hand that you cannot go out with.
Cheers,
Steve
Klaus Ole Kristiansen wrote:
> Steve Lin writes:
> >Lastly, in our scoring rules, we actually count "no flowers" and "no
honor
> >tiles" as a point, so that the lowest score one can get is 2 points
plus
> >whatever base is used. With a base of 2, the lowest score is 4 (since 3
> >points become 5 from explanation above). We also count all the flowers
and
> >triplets of honor tiles as a point, instead of the usual house/round
wind.
> >Are there any other rules that score this way?
>
> I don't understand what you mean.
>
> Klaus O K
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the great info on Taiwanese MJ. I'll try to reply to some of your
questions.
You asked,
Is there an "Eight Immortals", or having all 8 flowers in other rules of MJ?
I assume you must have a winning hand also, not just 8 flowers, right?
What about "Seven stealing one", where the winner has 7 flowers while the
loser has 1. You must have a winning hand here also, right? or do you
automatically win by drawing the flower?
*** I thought these both applied to New Style but I couldn't find it just now in Perlmen & Chan. Other forms recognize "bouquet" (all four Flowers or all four Seasons). I think you don't need a winning hand -- having 7 or 8 flowers is instantly enough to earn you big bucks (that's the way a bouquet works, anyway).
You asked,
We also have this rule about "one becoming three", which is sort of like
"peaceful win" in that it gives you more points for a really lousy hand. Any
hand with only 1 point would be counted as 3 points. Is anyone else familiar
with that?
*** Some New Style players treat Chicken hands as 3 Fan hands.
You asked,
Lastly, in our scoring rules, we actually count "no flowers"
*** Games that use "first calculate the base points, then double" award 4 points for /any/ flower, and a double for /own/ flower. In those games, there is no bonus for "no flower." Games that use "count the doubles and calculate the score," on the other hand, only award a double for /own/ flower -- it's /these/ games that might optionally allow a double for "no flower" (it's more balanced that way).
You continued:
and "no honor tiles" as a point
*** Japanese rules award a double if the hand contains nothing but Simples (two through eight).
You continued:
We also count all the flowers
*** Sorry, I don't understand. A point is earned for having "any flower" or "no flowers at all" or "all 8 flowers"? Unclear.
You continued:
and triplets of honor tiles as a point, instead of the usual house/round wind.
Are there any other rules that score this way?
*** So a pong of /any/ wind or dragon is worth a "point" (by which I assume you
mean "fan")? No, I'm not aware of any other game that does that. In Classical
Chinese, Hong Kong Old Style, and Modern Japanese and even in Western (not in
NMJL), pongs of Own wind or Prevailing wind, or any dragon, is worth a fan.
Other players' winds are not worth a fan -- they do earn higher base points (in
Chinese and Western), but that's all.
Or are you saying that the hand should be "all the flowers, and pongs of
nothing but honor tiles"? And how do you define "honor"? There are many
different definitions of "honor" -- see the Rosetta Stone FAQ.
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
> You asked,
> Is there an "Eight Immortals", or having all 8 flowers in other rules of
MJ?
> I assume you must have a winning hand also, not just 8 flowers, right?
> What about "Seven stealing one", where the winner has 7 flowers while the
> loser has 1. You must have a winning hand here also, right? or do you
> automatically win by drawing the flower?
>
> *** I thought these both applied to New Style but I couldn't find it just
now
> in Perlmen & Chan. Other forms recognize "bouquet" (all four Flowers or
all
> four Seasons). I think you don't need a winning hand -- having 7 or 8
flowers
> is instantly enough to earn you big bucks (that's the way a bouquet works,
> anyway).
NINEDRAGONS: P&C discussses this vaguely on pages 48 and
49. All 8 pays Limit Hand.
A bouquet (4 of a kind) pays 1 fan plus the fan that you get
for matching your seat).
No mention of an immediate win in any situation. However, my
HK contacts say that
7 is enough to go out immediately (with an incomplete hand)
at 3 fan. FYI, the odds
are much, much worse for 7 of 144 than for the California
Lottery. Eight is unthinkable.
--
J. R. Fitch
Nine Dragons Software
351 Ulloa Street
San Francisco,
California 94127
415.664.3474 v.
415.564.3161 f.
www.ninedragons.com
jrfitch@ninedragons.com
Tom,
Thanks for the reply. The flowers are counted as "tai", which is not exactly
like "fan", since Taiwanese MJ does not do multiplication. For example, 4
"tai" is exactly that, plus a base of, say, 2, for a total of 6 points. At a
quarter a point that hand is worth $1.50. If I understand HK MJ correctly, 4
"fan" is actually worth 4x2x2x2x2, or 64 points. At a quarter a point
that's... ouch. So we never see these astronomical points like 256 points in
Taiwanese MJ. As for the flowers and "honors" points, which I define as winds
and dragons:
no flower- 1 "tai"
one flower- 1 "tai"
two flower- 2 "tai"
seven flower stealing one- 14 "tai"
eight flower- 14"tai"
similarly,
no wind or dragon tiles at all- 1 "tai"
pair of wind or dragon- zero "tai"
triplet of any wind- 1 "tai"
triplet of any dragon- 2 "tai"
Of course this may not be the most popular way of playing Taiwanese mahjong.
I have communicated with Steve Willoughby, whose Taiwanese style mahjong
website is referenced in your FAQ. His scoring is based on a computer game,
in which the flowers and winds are counted only if it's round/seat wind or
flower, etc, much like other styles you're familiar with.
Cheers,
Steve
ACTSEARCH wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> Thanks for the great info on Taiwanese MJ. I'll try to reply to some of
your
> questions.
[snip]
Steve,
Wow, thanks for all that great new info. Interesting how the scoring is yet
again computed differently from other styles of MJ. Appreciate the details!
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:30:13 -0500, Steve Lin wrote:
>I assume you must have a winning hand also, not just 8 flowers, right?
OK - my wife is Taiwanese and a hell Mahjong player:-)) If You have 8 flower You win! No need to continue the game.
>What about "Seven stealing one", where the winner has 7 flowers while the
>loser has 1.
Sorry again:-) Let's say one have 1 flower from the beginning of the
game but You slip 7 one by one from the wall - then You finish as the
winner!
You take (steal or rub) the missing flower from the one who have it
allready.
>We also have this rule about "one becoming three", which is sort of like
>"peaceful win" in that it gives you more points for a really lousy hand. Any
>hand with only 1 point would be counted as 3 points. Is anyone else familiar
>with that?
If "no eat and no pong" and "no flowers or honor tiles" :
Tse moa = 1 point (slip the winning tile by yourself)
men ching = 1 point (no eat no pong)
ping hu = 1 point (no characters no flowers)
>Lastly, in our scoring rules, we actually count "no flowers" and "no honor
>tiles" as a point, so that the lowest score one can get is 2 points plus
>whatever base is used. With a base of 2, the lowest score is 4 (since 3
>points become 5 from explanation above). We also count all the flowers and
>triplets of honor tiles as a point, instead of the usual house/round wind.
>Are there any other rules that score this way?
Hmm (a little confused) - that's also the rules I know. But that's only a matter of how You arrange with Your oponents. Just make clear in the beginning of the game. So they do in Taiwan - and that's why I'm sometimes not sure how much I have to pay or get :-))
Heinz
[Steve Lin had described Taiwanese rules, and asked some questions about fine
points]
Heinz Scherer replied:
OK - my wife is Taiwanese and a hell Mahjong player:-))
[snip - Heinz clarified Steve's questions]
[Steve's particular rules are described and] Steve asked:
>Are there any other rules that score this way?
Heinz Scherer replied:
Hmm (a little confused) - that's also the rules I know. But that's
only a matter of how You arrange with Your oponents. Just make clear
in the beginning of the game. So they do in Taiwan - and that's why
I'm sometimes not sure how much I have to pay or get :-))
*** Sure sounds to me like you two are both already talking about the same game
(Taiwanese).
That was fun!
Tom
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
Steve Lin wrote,
Let me explain this further, [snip: clarification ensues]
Steve's original question (now clarified) was:
> >Are there any other rules [besides Taiwanese] that score this way?
*** I haven't heard of any.
Tom
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
In article ,
Steve Lin wrote:
Here below I try to answer your questions by applying the Cantonese mahjong rules and my book International Mahjong Rules:
> I have some questions, however, that I hope someone can help me answer:
> Is there an "Eight Immortals", or having all 8 flowers in other rules of
MJ?
> I assume you must have a winning hand also, not just 8 flowers, right?
> What about "Seven stealing one", where the winner has 7 flowers while the
> loser has 1. You must have a winning hand here also, right? or do you
> automatically win by drawing the flower?
(A) "Eight Flowers" is a Special Winning Hand, you win as soon as you draw the eighth Flower of your hand, regardless of the combination of other Pies (tiles) in your hand. [There may be dispute about the second part of this rule in Cantonese mahjong rules. In International Mahjong ("IMJ"), however, the rule itself is very clear.]
(B) "Seven Flowers" is a Special Winning Hand, you win as soon as you draw the seventh Flower of your hand, regardless of the combination of other Pies (tiles) in your hand.
(C) The winning in both scenarios is automatic (see above).
(D) Re "Seven stealing one" - I believe it is not recognized in Cantonese mahjong. How does it work in Taiwanese mahjong? It's interesting to know.
> Since I learned all the rules by playing, and the above never came up, I'm
not
> sure if a winning hand is required above.
(E) For you and for someone who wants to learn a complete set of mahjong rules, try the rulebook International Mahjong Rules. [Sorry, this is more a suggestion than an advertising. Sorry, anyway.]
> We also have this rule about "one becoming three", which is sort of like
> "peaceful win" in that it gives you more points for a really lousy hand.
Any
> hand with only 1 point would be counted as 3 points. Is anyone else
familiar
> with that?
(F) We have "one becoming three" in Cantonese mahjong too (or similar).
However, we do not have a specific term to name it. In fact, if you count all
the awards of the winning hand, you DO get three Folds (fans):-
- "The Plain" format (i.e., peaceful win), 1 Fold,
- "No Flowers", 1 Fold,
- "Selfmake" (win upon drawing by oneself, etc.), 1 Fold,
That's a total of three Folds.
(Should your hand have some Flowers which do not award any Fold and if you win
on a discarded Pie (tile), your hand is awarded only a total of one Fold.)
COFA TSUI 1998-09-18
"International Mahjong Rules" is now for sale,
LEARNING and TEACHING mahjong could be easy and fast!
Also, a full list of terminology used in IMJ.
Visit http://www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html
Distributors/Retailers wanted:
E-mail: imj@cofatsui.com
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In article Steve Lin writes:
>Cofatsui,
>I guess you answered my question about how to get to "eight flowers" if
"seven
>flowers" is an automatic win. Why anyone would choose not to declare win
>though, is beyond me. It sound to me that in your rules, "seven flowers"
mean
>exactly that, having seven flowers. In Taiwanese MJ it's actually called
>"Seven Robbing One", so all eight flowers have to show up before a win can
be
>declared. The scoring for both hands are the same.
Since I don't play Taiwanese MJ, maybe someone can explain this to me. Supposed someone at the table has 7 flowers showing, and I draw the last one. Tell me why I wouldn't just keep the flower in my hand and not show it -- I am fully aware that I can no longer win, since my hand is now one tile short. But why should I help another player to win AND have to pay for everyone else?
Dan,
You're not allowed to hide the flower. All flowers must be displayed. It's
just the luck of the draw, I guess. This brings up an interesting point,
though. If you deliberately hide the flower, what penalty will apply? This
is one of the few cases where a winning tile is known. I'll have to find out
from my rules expert friends about this situation. I thought I heard the term
"one robbing seven" before, where the person drawing the last flower wins, but
I don't know if anyone actually recognize this hand or if it was just a joke.
It would prevent the problem you're describing though. Perhaps other
Taiwanese mahjong players knows the answer.
Note that you're not paying for everyone else here. You'll pay the same
whether you draw the tile or the person with 7 tiles draw the 8th tile. The
difference is that all players have to pay for the self-draw, so the final
score is 3 times larger.
Cheers,
Steve
Dan Lau wrote:
>
> Since I don't play Taiwanese MJ, maybe someone can explain this to me.
> Supposed someone at the table has 7 flowers showing, and I draw the
> last one. Tell me why I wouldn't just keep the flower in my hand and
> not show it -- I am fully aware that I can no longer win, since my hand
> is now one tile short. But why should I help another player to win
> AND have to pay for everyone else?
In article ,
Steve Lin wrote:
> Dan,
> You're not allowed to hide the flower. All flowers must be displayed. It's
> just the luck of the draw, I guess. This brings up an interesting point,
> though. If you deliberately hide the flower, what penalty will apply?
The above posting is in answering to the posting below:
> Dan Lau wrote:
> >
> > Since I don't play Taiwanese MJ, maybe someone can explain this to me.
> > Supposed someone at the table has 7 flowers showing, and I draw the
> > last one. Tell me why I wouldn't just keep the flower in my hand and
> > not show it -- I am fully aware that I can no longer win, since my
hand
> > is now one tile short. But why should I help another player to win
> > AND have to pay for everyone else?
This problem does well illustrate the fear I always had when modifying, re-defining the existing rules (i.e., any grey areas) of the Cantonese Mahjong in my process of writing the rulebook International Mahjong Rules. IMO the rules of the original (or close to the original) Chinese mahjong (Chinese Classical, Hong Kong Old Style, etc.) are very well established that any "bug" (i.e., terms that are inconsistent or illogical with others within the same set of rules) is unlikely to happen.
The "Seven robbing one" rule of the Taiwanese Mahjong, as described in Dan Lau's posting above, clearly indicates a problem with this rule.
IMO, the rule itself is not fair: The drawer of the 8th Flower is out of control and he receives the "death sentence" without having any chance to "appeal" or to correct/change his fate!
IMO, the rule itself is not logical or not enforceable. As mentioned by Dan Lau, the drawer, in order to correct/change his fate, simply can give up the Game and hide the 8th Flower -- AND this type of act is something not detectable. (Unless no one wins the Game and at the end of the Game the player having 7 Flowers in hand asks to inspect the concealed Pies of all players. If someone wins the Game, the "cheating player" escapes his loss.)
Any comments?
--
COFA TSUI 9/29/1998
Buy International Mahjong Rules, get LIFE-LONG membership
www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html
(8929a)
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Cofa Tsui wrote,
> IMO, the rule itself is not fair: [snip]
> IMO, the rule itself is not logical or not enforceable. [snip]
> Any comments?
*** Just one. If you don't like that rule, don't use it. If your opponents want to use that rule, find different opponents (since you will not be able to fully enjoy the game). However, the rule isn't really unenforceable (see my response to Dan Lau's message in the related thread).
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
> Steve Lin wrote,
> [snip] it's interesting that at a penny a point, you would
> need $20 to cover the night (all play money, of course:-)). The largest
> single hand in 16-tile mahjong is typically about 20 points (Pure colors,
> which is almost impossible in 16-tile, plus miscellaneous flowers, etc),
which
> at a penny a point is only worth 20 cents. When we use 5 cents per point,
> usually the worst a person can do after 8 rounds is be down 100 points, or
$5.
Ah. But our base scores are 2000 a person.
There is 20 points for winning, and a limit hand (the max number of
points in one hand) is 300 points (600 for East)
Sarah Heacock
sarah@eskimo.com
Cofa Tsui wrote:
> IMO, the rule itself is not fair: The drawer of the 8th Flower is out of
> control and he receives the "death sentence" without having any chance to
> "appeal" or to correct/change his fate!
True, but you can also argue that winning with seven or eight flowers is not
fair, since 3 players receive the "death sentence", even if the winner has a
lousy hand. Instead of making 3 players pay, the "Seven Robbing One" gives
the 3 players a chance to:
1)win with their own hand
2)hope someone else draws the 8th flower
3)hope the flower is in the dead tiles
Any of these cases would give them a better result than paying the player with
seven flowers under HK or Classic style you're familiar with.
> IMO, the rule itself is not logical or not enforceable. As mentioned by Dan
> Lau, the drawer, in order to correct/change his fate, simply can give up
the
> Game and hide the 8th Flower -- AND this type of act is something not
> detectable. (Unless no one wins the Game and at the end of the Game the
> player having 7 Flowers in hand asks to inspect the concealed Pies of all
> players. If someone wins the Game, the "cheating player" escapes his loss.)
This is also true, since players are not allowed to inspect other player's
hidden hand, except hidden gong. They are allowed to look at all the dead
tiles in case of a draw. Everyone I asked knows of no alternatives other than
throwing out the flower, since hiding it would be cheating. There's no way
for other players to know, but any casual observer would notice the flower.
This doesn't mean there's no rule in Taiwanese style that handles this
situation, since most of my friends are not expert players. Perhaps other
Taiwanese mahjong players like sarah@eskimo.com can ask their group. There's
one other situation where "Seven Robbing One" applies though, and that's if
player A has six flowers, the seventh flower is already out, and player A
draws the seventh flower.
The probability of drawing seven flowers though, is very small, so this
situation rarely comes up (I've never seen it myself), and this question would
never come up. Of course that's why we have this news group.
As for cheating, yes in this case it is possible to get away with it, and the
reason a self-draw must never touch your other tiles is to prevent cheating.
Anyone who cheats though, would run the risk of being expelled from the group.
Unless you're a professional gambler going from parlour to parlour, it's not
worth losing your friends and playing partners over a single hand.
Cheers,
Steve
I don't think that our style of Mah Jongg is taiwanese. It's much closer to what has been described as Chinese Classical if I remember right.
We do NOT have the rule that someone who gets all the flowers gets automatically wins (or that if you get seven flowers you can steal the last and automatically win...)
If you get all 4 flowers/seasons (we have two different flavors of flowers -- red and black numbers. Though their official title is flowers and seasons) You get 3 doubles, though. (which, with the 4 points a flower you get.... Is pretty substantial.
There are enough breaths gasped when someone gets three of the same flavor of flower. I think that getting 8 (or even just 7) would be considered groups for justifiable termination. After all, getting all 8 flowers would give you 8 x 4 points/flower=32 points base before you consider the hand.
32 double 3 times for having all flowers -- 256 points
Doubled 3 times again for having all seasons -- 2048
Actually... That's a limit hand anyway :) You don't need it to be automatic win because everyone is going to hate you anyway. They'll all be chanting for a draw. And watching the wall dwindle.
Steve Lin wrote:
> situation, since most of my friends are not expert players. Perhaps other
> Taiwanese mahjong players like sarah@eskimo.com can ask their group. There's
> one other situation where "Seven Robbing One" applies though, and that's if
> player A has six flowers, the seventh flower is already out, and player A
> draws the seventh flower.
> The probability of drawing seven flowers though, is very small, so this
> situation rarely comes up (I've never seen it myself), and this question
would
> never come up. Of course that's why we have this news group.
> As for cheating, yes in this case it is possible to get away with it, and
the
> reason a self-draw must never touch your other tiles is to prevent
cheating.
> Anyone who cheats though, would run the risk of being expelled from the
group.
Sarah, Princess of the Eskimos, wrote:
I don't think that our style of Mah Jongg is taiwanese. It's
much
closer to what has been described as Chinese Classical if I remember
right.
Sarah,
No, you don't play the Taiwanese game. I think Steve just assumed that from
something you said in the thread. The Taiwanese game deals 16 tiles to each
player; and the goal is to go out with a hand of 17 tiles.
For further clarification as to which style you play (and what the differences between the styles are), see FAQ 9.
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
Perhaps a Princess... wrote:
>
> I don't think that our style of Mah Jongg is taiwanese.
It's much
> closer to what has been described as Chinese Classical if I remember
> right.
My apology for the mix-up. I remember someone mentioned that they play
Taiwanese style also, but I guess I remembered the wrong name.
Cheers,
Steve
On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 11:22:16 -0500, Steve Lin <r14526@email.sps.mot.com> wrote:
>Cofa Tsui wrote:
>> IMO, the rule itself is not fair: The drawer of the 8th Flower is out
of
>> control and he receives the "death sentence" without having any chance
to
>> "appeal" or to correct/change his fate!
>True, but you can also argue that winning with seven or eight flowers is not
>fair, [...]
>Any of these cases would give them a better result than paying the player
with
>seven flowers under HK or Classic style you're familiar with.
Winnig on flowers is not 'standard' in HKOS or Classical. It is also only an optional rule (as are a good number of others) in New Style. If players feel that it is "unfair", they don't have to allow winning on flowers at all. In fact, players can play without flowers at all if they so prefer.
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