In some aspects MahJong differs from other games.
I know why we play counter clockwise, because MahJong is not a Western
game.
I know why the dealer plays first, for the same reason.
But why are the wind positions mirror reversed?
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is offering too little and asking too much.
In article <3621dcdf.22273512@news>,
nater001@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) wrote:
> In some aspects MahJong differs from other games.
>
> I know why we play counter clockwise, because MahJong is not a Western
> game.
> I know why the dealer plays first, for the same reason.
> But why are the wind positions mirror reversed?
>
"Why are the wind positions mirror reversed"? My gut feeling is that in the "original" or ancient mahjong games the wind positions were actually referring to something else - something which was not related to the compass directions at all.
(Don't ask me which one is "original", which one is ancient, mahjong game(s).)
--
COFA TSUI 1998-10-11
Buy International Mahjong Rules, get LIFE-LONG membership
http://www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
They aren't. Look at them from the bottom of the table upwards and it's back to normal. Heehee.. :-)
--
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Rose ---------------------------------------------------Devlot
Nina --Patrick Ho Kasumi
Taki http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Quad/2752 Ellis
Anna ---------------------------------------------------Michelle
Elena Felicia Orchid Morrigan Mileena Sindel Seung Mina Hsien-ko
On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 18:39:25 -0700, Patrick Ho <patho@email.sjsu.edu> wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>They aren't. Look at them from the bottom of the table upwards and it's
>back to normal. Heehee.. :-)
I heard a similar explanation before. But it's not really satisfying.
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is offering too little and asking too much.
nater001@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) writes:
>In some aspects MahJong differs from other games.
>I know why we play counter clockwise, because MahJong is not a Western
>game.
>I know why the dealer plays first, for the same reason.
>But why are the wind positions mirror reversed?
Why do you call east "dealer"? He doesn't deal.
Klaus O K
Klaus OK asked,
> Why do you call east "dealer"? He doesn't deal.
*** This is one of those unanswerable mysteries. I wonder why we say "Winter" or "Summer" too. Maybe "winter" meant "windier" (but that doesn't mean that there's more wind in the winter) and "summer" meant "sunnier" -- if it sounds like I'm going off on a Twilight Zone trip, I'm not. None of us has consciously made the decision "let's call East 'dealer'" -- that's just the terminology that's used in our rulebooks. See the Rosetta Stone -- not everybody uses this terminology, but lots do.
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
On 12 Oct 1998 22:09:19 GMT, actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote:
>
>Klaus OK asked,
>> Why do you call east "dealer"? He doesn't deal.
>
>*** This is one of those unanswerable mysteries.
The Chinese word used for East is /zong1/, which means "the house", hence the "dealer" in /other/ gambling games such as Blackjack.
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notme.netvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com
(please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address)
Some posts on r.g.m are really cute; e.g., Klaus OK's query: "Why do you
call east 'dealer'? He doesn't deal." Although Alan Kwan has given an
effective response, permit me to add my views, as this rendition is also
used in my book (The Happy Game of Mah-Jong).
As an author introducing a new game to readers unfamiliar with all
aspects of it, I feel that, by attempting to relate, whatever possible,
to games with which readers might be conversant, this distance of
unfamiliarity could be reduced. "Dealer" (to refer to East) is such a
word.
True, in MJ, east does not deal -- I am fully aware of it. (In my book,
references are made to a variety of games such as bridge, poker, gin
rummy, backgammon, and football.) But, east initiates action (by
casting dice, as explained in my book, at page 57, to justify this
usage.)
If one wants to be technical, the word "dealer" may not be applicable to
some versions of a game in which the word first appears. I have in mind
contract bridge. Yes, dealing is done in SOCIAL bridge, but certainly
not in DUPLICATE bridge -- in the latter, unless in the initial round,
you are given a tray in which all 52 cards have been neatly packed in
four slots, with one identified as "DEALER." If the logic behind Klaus
OK's post is followed, perhaps that word should be changed in duplicate
bridge as well.
Mah-Jong is a simple and happy game -- there are no "unanswerable
mysteries" (as an answer by another poster, quoted by Alan Kwan) unless
to those whose understanding of the game is lacking. David Li
actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) writes:
>Klaus OK asked,
>> Why do you call east "dealer"? He doesn't deal.
>*** This is one of those unanswerable mysteries. I wonder why we say
"Winter"
>or "Summer" too. Maybe "winter" meant "windier" (but that doesn't mean that
>there's more wind in the winter) and "summer" meant "sunnier" -- if it
sounds
>like I'm going off on a Twilight Zone trip, I'm not. None of us has
>consciously made the decision "let's call East 'dealer'" -- that's just the
>terminology that's used in our rulebooks. See the Rosetta Stone -- not
>everybody uses this terminology, but lots do.
iEast is called dealer because of similarity to Western games where one person is called dealer:
1. East is usually the last person to draw a card/tile first.
2. East decides where the cards/tiles will be dealt from (by rolling
the dice).
3. East incurs heavier penalties.
In other words, East functions slightly differently than all the other players. My guess is that the first person to translate mahjong rules wasn't very clear on the Chinese term used to designate this ability (zhuang-ja in Mandarin) and just translated it as "dealer".
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu,
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
Wei-Hwa Huang wrote:
My guess is that the first person to translate mahjong
rules wasn't very clear on the Chinese term used to designate this
ability (zhuang-ja in Mandarin) and just translated it as "dealer".
*** Yep, that would be J.P. Babcock. He chose the term "dealer," all right.
Good guess, Wei-Hwa.
Tom
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
On 12 Oct 1998 09:40:22 +0200, klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>Why do you call east "dealer"? He doesn't deal.
Well, you understood I meant East, didn't you.
Perhaps he doesn't deal, but he initiates the game. In that sense he might be compared to the dealer in card games. And he is 'vulnerable', a term borrowed from bridge, because he pays and receives the double score. From other card games you could borrow the term 'banker'.
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is offering too little and asking too much.
nater001@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) writes:
>On 12 Oct 1998 09:40:22 +0200, klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
>wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>>Why do you call east "dealer"? He doesn't deal.
>Well, you understood I meant East, didn't you.
Yes, because I have seen it used here before. I had trouble with it the first times.
>Perhaps he doesn't deal, but he initiates the game. In that sense he
>might be compared to the dealer in card games.
He might more aptly be compared to "elder" in a card game.
Klaus O K
On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 16:31:11 GMT, nater001@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) wrote:
>In some aspects MahJong differs from other games.
>
>I know why we play counter clockwise, because MahJong is not a Western
>game.
>I know why the dealer plays first, for the same reason.
>But why are the wind positions mirror reversed?
Probably because in Chinese culture, the 4 directions are ordered East, South, West, and North. The winds are assigned in the same sequence as the sequence of play.
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notme.netvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com
(please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address)
Alan Kwan wrote,
>Probably because in Chinese culture, the 4 directions are ordered
>East, South, West, and North. The winds are assigned in the same
>sequence as the sequence of play.
OK, that makes sense. The order of play would be perfect (would even resemble a non-mirrored compass when the table is viewed from overhead) if the play just went clockwise instead of counterclockwise. In the West, we tend to play table games clockwise -- if this was also the norm in China in the 1800's, we never would have had this problem, I guess!
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) writes:
>Alan Kwan wrote,
>>Probably because in Chinese culture, the 4 directions are ordered
>>East, South, West, and North. The winds are assigned in the same
>>sequence as the sequence of play.
>OK, that makes sense. The order of play would be perfect (would even
resemble
>a non-mirrored compass when the table is viewed from overhead) if the play
just
>went clockwise instead of counterclockwise. In the West, we tend to play
table
>games clockwise -- if this was also the norm in China in the 1800's, we
never
>would have had this problem, I guess!
I should also mention that the four winds roughly correspond to the seasons in China: The East Wind is a warm wind from the Pacific and is predominant in the spring; the South Wind is a hot wind from the South Pacific in the summer; the West Wind is a breeze from the western provinces in the fall; and the North Wind is cold and prevalent in the winter. This is the reason for the ordering.
In other words, the winds correspond to WINDS, not DIRECTIONS. :-)
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu,
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
"Pity those who are jealous, and be jealous of those who pity."
On 13 Oct 1998 20:20:50 GMT, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>I should also mention that the four winds roughly correspond to the
>seasons in China: The East Wind is a warm wind from the Pacific and
>is predominant in the spring; the South Wind is a hot wind from the
>South Pacific in the summer; the West Wind is a breeze from the western
>provinces in the fall; and the North Wind is cold and prevalent in the
>winter. This is the reason for the ordering.
>
>In other words, the winds correspond to WINDS, not DIRECTIONS. :-)
This explains the correspondence between winds and seasons, but not the reversed seat positions.
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect
> On 13 Oct 1998 20:20:50 GMT, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang)
> wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>
> >I should also mention that the four winds roughly correspond to the
> >seasons in China: The East Wind is a warm wind from the Pacific and
> >is predominant in the spring; the South Wind is a hot wind from the
> >South Pacific in the summer; the West Wind is a breeze from the western
> >provinces in the fall; and the North Wind is cold and prevalent in the
> >winter. This is the reason for the ordering.
> >
> >In other words, the winds correspond to WINDS, not DIRECTIONS. :-)
> This explains the correspondence between winds and seasons, but not
> the reversed seat positions.
Good explanations were given for the sequence: East, South,
West, North.
Then, given the desire to play counter-clockwise around the
table, South sits to the right of East. From above, this
would appear incorrect, but only if you insist on perceiving
the table as a map.
--
J. R. Fitch
Nine Dragons Software
351 Ulloa Street
San Francisco,
California 94127
415.664.3474 v.
415.564.3161 f.
www.ninedragons.com
jrfitch@ninedragons.com
nater001@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) writes:
>On 13 Oct 1998 20:20:50 GMT, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang)
>wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>>I should also mention that the four winds roughly correspond to the
>>seasons in China: The East Wind is a warm wind from the Pacific and
>>is predominant in the spring; the South Wind is a hot wind from the
>>South Pacific in the summer; the West Wind is a breeze from the western
>>provinces in the fall; and the North Wind is cold and prevalent in the
>>winter. This is the reason for the ordering.
>>
>>In other words, the winds correspond to WINDS, not DIRECTIONS. :-)
>This explains the correspondence between winds and seasons, but not
>the reversed seat positions.
The point is, there are no reversed seat positions. The seats are arranged in counter-clockwise order in order of seasons. The fact that the winds corresponds to incorrect directions as well is just a coincidence that appeared through later changes. Like how "October" means "8th month" but is actually the 10th month.
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
"Pity those who are jealous, and be jealous of those who pity."It helps to explain things at their roots. In the "reversed directions" case, Western players cannot understand this because in their culture, the 4 directions are ordered North, South, East, and West. Many of them won't know that the Chinese order them East, South, West and North, until they're told the fact.
In the example you give, the fact is that historically, October was once the eighth month of the year, and the first month of the year was March, the beginning of spring. But then for some reason (what's it? I forgot) the calender was shifted by two months, so that October became the tenth month. Or so I've heard.
On 14 Oct 1998 15:56:17 GMT, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) wrote:
>nater001@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) writes:
>>On 13 Oct 1998 20:20:50 GMT, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang)
>>wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>
>>>I should also mention that the four winds roughly correspond to the
>>>seasons in China: The East Wind is a warm wind from the Pacific and
>>>is predominant in the spring; the South Wind is a hot wind from the
>>>South Pacific in the summer; the West Wind is a breeze from the
western
>>>provinces in the fall; and the North Wind is cold and prevalent in
the
>>>winter. This is the reason for the ordering.
>>>
>>>In other words, the winds correspond to WINDS, not DIRECTIONS. :-)
>
>>This explains the correspondence between winds and seasons, but not
>>the reversed seat positions.
>
>The point is, there are no reversed seat positions. The seats are
>arranged in counter-clockwise order in order of seasons. The fact that
>the winds corresponds to incorrect directions as well is just a
>coincidence that appeared through later changes. Like how "October" means
>"8th month" but is actually the 10th month.
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notme.netvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com
(please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address)
Alan Kwan wrote:
>It helps to explain things at their roots. In the "reversed
>directions" case, Western players cannot understand this because in
>their culture, the 4 directions are ordered North, South, East, and
>West. Many of them won't know that the Chinese order them East,
>South, West and North, until they're told the fact.
*** It is true that, asked to name the 4 major compass directions, English-speaking people tend to say "North, South, East, West" -- but in western flavors of Mah-Jongg, the winds are typically ordered North, East, West, South because this spells a word -- NEWS. When a vanilla Western special hand calls for "one of each Wind" that is usually abbreviated "NEWS." And players probably order them in their hands that way.
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) writes:
>Alan Kwan wrote:
>>It helps to explain things at their roots. In the "reversed
>>directions" case, Western players cannot understand this because in
>>their culture, the 4 directions are ordered North, South, East, and
>>West. Many of them won't know that the Chinese order them East,
>>South, West and North, until they're told the fact.
>*** It is true that, asked to name the 4 major compass directions,
>English-speaking people tend to say "North, South, East, West" -- but in
>western flavors of Mah-Jongg, the winds are typically ordered North, East,
>West, South because this spells a word -- NEWS. When a vanilla Western
special
>hand calls for "one of each Wind" that is usually abbreviated "NEWS." And
>players probably order them in their hands that way.
Some Chinese people use the ordering EWNS. It's possible that EWNS is
because in Modern Mandarin Chinese, "East-West" is a common two-word
phrase meaning "thing."
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu,
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
"Pity those who are jealous, and be jealous of those who pity."
On 16 Oct 1998 18:52:54 GMT, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) wrote:
>Some Chinese people use the ordering EWNS. It's possible that EWNS is
>because in Modern Mandarin Chinese, "East-West" is a common two-word
>phrase meaning "thing."
Interesting. I've heard about EWSN but not EWNS.
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notme.netvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
DS Editor - http://www.dimension-s.com
(please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address)
tarot@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan) writes:
>On 16 Oct 1998 18:52:54 GMT, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang)
>wrote:
>>Some Chinese people use the ordering EWNS. It's possible that EWNS is
>>because in Modern Mandarin Chinese, "East-West" is a common two-word
>>phrase meaning "thing."
>Interesting. I've heard about EWSN but not EWNS.
Uh, perhaps that's because I made a typo and meant to say EWSN. Oops.
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu,
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
"Pity those who are jealous, and be jealous of those who pity."
actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) writes:
>Alan Kwan wrote:
>>It helps to explain things at their roots. In the "reversed
>>directions" case, Western players cannot understand this because in
>>their culture, the 4 directions are ordered North, South, East, and
>>West. Many of them won't know that the Chinese order them East,
>>South, West and North, until they're told the fact.
>*** It is true that, asked to name the 4 major compass directions,
>English-speaking people tend to say "North, South, East, West" -- but in
>western flavors of Mah-Jongg, the winds are typically ordered North, East,
>West, South because this spells a word -- NEWS. When a vanilla Western
special
>hand calls for "one of each Wind" that is usually abbreviated "NEWS." And
>players probably order them in their hands that way.
Some Chinese people use the ordering EWNS. It's possible that EWNS is because in Modern Mandarin Chinese, "East-West" is a common two-word phrase meaning "thing."
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu,
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
"Pity those who are jealous, and be jealous of those who pity."
actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) writes:
>Alan Kwan wrote:
>>It helps to explain things at their roots. In the "reversed
>>directions" case, Western players cannot understand this because in
>>their culture, the 4 directions are ordered North, South, East, and
>>West. Many of them won't know that the Chinese order them East,
>>South, West and North, until they're told the fact.
>*** It is true that, asked to name the 4 major compass directions,
>English-speaking people tend to say "North, South, East, West" -- but in
>western flavors of Mah-Jongg, the winds are typically ordered North, East,
>West, South because this spells a word -- NEWS. When a vanilla Western
special
>hand calls for "one of each Wind" that is usually abbreviated "NEWS." And
>players probably order them in their hands that way.
Some Chinese people use the ordering EWNS. It's possible that EWNS is because in Modern Mandarin Chinese, "East-West" is a common two-word phrase meaning "thing."
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu,
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
"Pity those who are jealous, and be jealous of those who pity."
Feico wrote:
This explains the correspondence between winds and seasons, but not
the reversed seat positions.
J.R. wrote:
Good explanations were given for the sequence: East, South,
West, North.
Then, given the desire to play counter-clockwise around the
table, South sits to the right of East. From above, this
would appear incorrect, but only if you insist on perceiving
the table as a map.
Wei-Hwa wrote:
The point is, there are no reversed seat positions. The seats are
arranged in counter-clockwise order in order of seasons. The fact that
the winds corresponds to incorrect directions as well is just a
coincidence that appeared through later changes.
My two cents:
If play had proceeded clockwise rather than counterclockwise, we would not
have this "problem." So the only question I have for the experts (perhaps
David Li or Alan Kwan have some knowledge on this?) is: why was the order of
play defined as counterclockwise rather than clockwise? All games in the West
play clockwise -- is clockwise play purely a Western thing based on the clock
direction, and was a conscious decision made to make play proceed
counterclockwise just to be different from the Western way, or what?
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
On 15 Oct 1998 17:39:06 GMT, actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
> If play had proceeded clockwise rather than counterclockwise, we would not
>have this "problem." So the only question I have for the experts (perhaps
>David Li or Alan Kwan have some knowledge on this?) is: why was the order of
>play defined as counterclockwise rather than clockwise? All games in the
West
>play clockwise -- is clockwise play purely a Western thing based on the
clock
>direction, and was a conscious decision made to make play proceed
>counterclockwise just to be different from the Western way, or what?
I began this thread, and I read all replies. Here's my conclusion.
In China it was common that games were played counterclockwise. In the West all games are clockwise. This is an arbitrary choice. By coincidence East and West made a different arbitrary choice.
In China the East wind blows in spring, South in summer, West in autumn and North in Winter. So the natural order of winds is ESWN. Perhaps there is an Eastern language where the words East and May are the same, and likewise South and August, West and November, North and February.
Mahjong players are named after the winds, in order of play, East South West North, in the natural order.
Mahjong is played counterclockwise, because this is the common way in all Eastern games.
By thus naming the players, and by playing counterclockwise, the result is a table with the wind positions mirror reversed.
Western mahjong-players might prefer to play clockwise, first because that's how all Western games are played, second because this repairs the mirror reversed table.
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is offering too little and asking too much.
actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) writes:
>My two cents:
> If play had proceeded clockwise rather than counterclockwise, we would not
>have this "problem." So the only question I have for the experts (perhaps
>David Li or Alan Kwan have some knowledge on this?) is: why was the order of
>play defined as counterclockwise rather than clockwise? All games in the
West
>play clockwise -- is clockwise play purely a Western thing based on the
clock
>direction, and was a conscious decision made to make play proceed
>counterclockwise just to be different from the Western way, or what?
The clockwise direction is older (in the west) than the mechanical clock. Most people I know says "with the clock" or "against the clock". My mother often says "with the sun". The sun rises in the east, moves through the south, and sets in the west. This is the same direction play moves at a western game table. (Unless you play l'hombre, of course).
Klaus O K
Klaus Ole Kristiansen wrote:
> The clockwise direction is older (in the west) than the mechanical clock.
> Most people I know says "with the clock" or "against the clock". My
> mother often says "with the sun". The sun rises in the east, moves through
> the south, and sets in the west. This is the same direction play moves
> at a western game table. (Unless you play l'hombre, of course).
This sounds arbitrary also, since one can claim that the sun rises in the
East, passes through the North, then sets in the West, giving us a
counterclockwise direction.
Cheers,
Steve
Steve Lin <r14526@email.sps.mot.com> writes:
>Klaus Ole Kristiansen wrote:
>> The clockwise direction is older (in the west) than the mechanical
clock.
>> Most people I know says "with the clock" or "against the clock". My
>> mother often says "with the sun". The sun rises in the east, moves
through
>> the south, and sets in the west. This is the same direction play moves
>> at a western game table. (Unless you play l'hombre, of course).
>This sounds arbitrary also, since one can claim that the sun rises in the
>East, passes through the North, then sets in the West, giving us a
>counterclockwise direction.
Not in those parts of the world where Western tradition comes from.
Klaus O K
On 16 Oct 1998 10:11:29 +0200, klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>The clockwise direction is older (in the west) than the mechanical clock.
>Most people I know says "with the clock" or "against the clock". My
>mother often says "with the sun".
That could be true, but it is unimportant. Oak trees existed before
the English language existed, nevertheless it is allowed to call them
oak trees.
The reason why we play clockwise has, probably, nothing to do with
clock dials, nevertheless it is allowed to call it clockwise.
Your mother saying "with the sun" could be confusing because it is
invalid in the Southern hemisphere.
Perhaps you are interested in confusing Dutch terms. We also say "with the sun" or "against the clock", but also "to the right" and "to the left" , and the last two terms seem confused.
clockwise:
met de klok mee, met de zon mee, rechtsom*, linksom+
counterclockwise:
tegen de klok in, tegen de zon in, linksom*, rechtsom+
* when turning a knob, a key, etc.
+ sequence when playing a game
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect
Klaus O K wrote,
The sun rises in the east, moves through
the south, and sets in the west.
*** Yes, but only if you live in the Northern Hemisphere. It's different in the Southern Hemisphere.
Feico Nater agrees:
saying "with the sun" could be confusing because it is invalid in the Southern
hemisphere.
Steve Lin wrote,
one can claim that the sun rises in the East, passes through the North, then
sets in the West
*** Yes, but only people who live in the Southern Hemisphere can claim so and be accurate. It's different in the Northern Hemisphere.
One can /claim/ that the sun rises in the West -- but one would /still/ be incorrect in doing so!
I think we have managed to conclude that games are normally played clockwise in the West, and normally played counterclcockwise in the East, and it doesn't really matter why. And I think we have come to understand why the winds are ordered the way they are around the table -- and that makes me glad!
Tom Sloper (aka "Another poster")
actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) writes:
>My two cents:
> If play had proceeded clockwise rather than counterclockwise, we would not
>have this "problem." So the only question I have for the experts (perhaps
>David Li or Alan Kwan have some knowledge on this?) is: why was the order of
>play defined as counterclockwise rather than clockwise? All games in the
West
>play clockwise -- is clockwise play purely a Western thing based on the
clock
>direction, and was a conscious decision made to make play proceed
>counterclockwise just to be different from the Western way, or what?
I suspect Eastern games predate Western clocks, so I doubt it was done "just to be different."
I have no factual evidence for this, but I suspect the reason Eastern games go counterclockwise is because of the predominance of right-handedness: when you discard a tile, it is with your right hand, and therefore closer to the next player for a "chi". I.e., the next player is more likely to be interested in your discard than the other two, so it makes sense for the next player to be to your right. Also, it is slightly easier for the right-side player to notice you have discarded than for the left-side player to notice, for the same reason. ("Oh, you discarded? I didn't notice; must have been blocked by your body.") In fact, in any game where a player has to give items (cards, dice) to the next player, counterclockwise seems more natural.
Perhaps the real question is: Why are Western games played clockwise?
(My guess is that when your left hand is holding a fan of cards, it is harder for the left-hand player to see your cards and cheat -- Early Eastern games did not have "fannable" cards, so perhaps this was not an issue.)
Is it true that all Western games are played clockwise? Parcheesi pieces go counter-clockwise, but that may not count as Western; Mancala pieces sow counter-clockwise, but perhaps we mean "Western European," and in backgammon White moves "counter-clockwise" and Black moves "clockwise" (and in most books, backgammon boards are printed from White's point of view). All other old games I can think about seem to go clockwise.
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu,
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
"Pity those who are jealous, and be jealous of those who pity."
From actsearch@aol.com Mon Oct 12 21:23:58 1998
Newsgroups: rec.games.mahjong
Subject: Re: Why are the winds mirror reversed?
From: actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH)
Date: 12 Oct 1998 20:23:58 GMT
Feico Nater wrote,
I know why we play counter clockwise, because MahJong is not a Western
game.
I know why the dealer plays first, for the same reason.
But why are the wind positions mirror reversed?
*** Well, I have a theory that may be far-fetched. Here is my theory (just a guess; no facts to back this up):
- The original game had the play go clockwise, ESWN. This makes for a proper alignment when viewing the table from above (the intuitive viewing position). - Then the play went counter-clockwise but stayed ESWN. This made for the mirror-image effect on the winds.
Just a hypothesis! I'm interested in finding out how this happened too.
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
In article <7084ig$3rn@gap.cco.caltech.edu> whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) writes:
[Big Snip]
> and in backgammon White moves "counter-clockwise" and
>Black moves "clockwise" (and in most books, backgammon boards
>are printed from White's point of view).
I have to correct you on this one. Backgammon moves are always "towards the light". So it depends on which way you are sitting when you play the game, if the light is coming from the right, then both players move their pieces towards the right, but if the light is coming from the left, then both players play by moving towards the left. I thought this is a well known "rule" for backgammon.
dlau@xcs101.sc.intel.com (Dan Lau) writes:
>In article <7084ig$3rn@gap.cco.caltech.edu> whuang@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) writes:
>[Big Snip]
>> and in backgammon White moves "counter-clockwise" and
>>Black moves "clockwise" (and in most books, backgammon boards
>>are printed from White's point of view).
>I have to correct you on this one. Backgammon moves are always
>"towards the light". So it depends on which way you are sitting
>when you play the game, if the light is coming from the right,
>then both players move their pieces towards the right, but if
>the light is coming from the left, then both players play by
>moving towards the left. I thought this is a well known "rule"
>for backgammon.
If the light is coming from your left, it is coming from your oponent's right.
Other than that, you are both right. Black does move clockwise, and usually the players seat themselves so the light is coming from black's left.
Klaus O K