In my opinion:
Good players obey the rules of the game.
Players who deliberately violate the rules, hoping that it will not be
noticed, or even that the penalty is better than the unfair advantage,
should be avoided.
However, sometimes a rule will be violated by accident. If possible,
the error should be corrected and the game should continue. If the
offending player gains an advantage, he should be penalised.
For example: a player claims a discarded dot 9 and adds two bamboo 9
to it. Obviously he had confused dots and bamboos. The error is
noticed by an opponent and the claim is void. No penalty, the player
has shown his tiles, this is sufficient punishment.
It could be that the offending player actually has two dot 9 as well.
In that case it should be allowed that he melds a pung of dots. No
penalty.
However, what should be done when the game continues and the error is
noticed afterwards?
Another example: a player calls 'out' and displays his tiles. The opponents should keep their hands concealed until they have verified the winner's hand. In case of error, the game can proceed without penalty.
Another example; a player accidentally drops one of his tiles, and all player can see it. No penalty.
While building the wall, a tile topples over. What should be done? Should the tiles be shuffled again? This could seriously delay the game, because it often happens that a tile falls while the wall is being built.
A player draws from the wall before his turn.
A player takes the wrong tile from the wall, for example from the live wall after melding a Kong. Actually this does not matter much, because nobody knows in advance what the tiles will be, but it is a violation of the rules.
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is offering too little and asking too much.
Feico Nater wrote:
For example: a player claims a discarded dot 9 and adds two bamboo 9
to it. Obviously he had confused dots and bamboos. The error is
noticed by an opponent and the claim is void. No penalty, the player
has shown his tiles, this is sufficient punishment.
It could be that the offending player actually has two dot 9 as well.
In that case it should be allowed that he melds a pung of dots. No
penalty.
However, what should be done when the game continues and the error is
noticed afterwards?
*** For a moment I'm replying based on what I think is logical and right, rather than opening the books to see what they say. In the case above, I think the player who gets caught sufficiently afterwards ought to be penalized by having his hand declared dead. He can continue to draw and discard but he cannot go Out.
Feico wrote:
Another example: a player calls 'out' and displays his tiles. The
opponents should keep their hands concealed until they have verified
the winner's hand. In case of error, the game can proceed without
penalty.
*** The False Out player should get the False Out penalty. Whatever that penalty is at the table.
Feico:
Another example; a player accidentally drops one of his tiles, and all
player can see it. No penalty.
While building the wall, a tile topples over. What should be done?
Should the tiles be shuffled again? This could seriously delay the
game, because it often happens that a tile falls while the wall is
being built.
*** If one player feels very strongly that the entire hand should be declared void, then the hand will have to be redealt. And the players ought to find somebody to replace that too-strict person the next time they play! (o_o)
Feico:
A player draws from the wall before his turn.
*** Make the player put it back. Make sure that the tile is taken by the person it was supposed to be taken by. No penalty.
Feico:
A player takes the wrong tile from the wall, for example from the live
wall after melding a Kong. Actually this does not matter much, because
nobody knows in advance what the tiles will be, but it is a violation
of the rules.
*** If noticed in time, make the player put it back with no penalty. If the player immediately goes Out on it, disallow it and declare the hand dead, and give the player the False Out penalty. If not going Out on it and the error was not noticed until too late, let it go, with no penalty. If player habitually does that, replace him/her with a player who doesn't constantly raise issues with "apparent mistakes that might possibly be intentional acts."
Once again -- this reply is based on my opinion, not on printed rules (which may vary according to the style of MJ being played).
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com (weekdays)
Actsearch@aol.com (weekends)
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free
demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
On 10 Sep 1998 16:42:20 GMT, actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>Another example: a player calls 'out' and displays his tiles. The
>opponents should keep their hands concealed until they have verified
>the winner's hand. In case of error, the game can proceed without
>penalty.
>
>*** The False Out player should get the False Out penalty. Whatever that
>penalty is at the table.
It could be that this is the official rule, but you should allow me to prefer another rule. In my opinion every attempt should be made to play the game correctly. When an error can be corrected, this should be done and the game should proceed. When the other have not revealed their hands, the game can proceed easily, the only harm is that the offending player has shown his hand, but that's his own fault. And I say even more. When Fred calls Out in error, and Dick reveals his hand, Dick has made an error as well! Yes, he has revealed his hand without checking Fred's hand. Both players shall pick up their hands and proceed playing. No other penalty.
>Feico:
>While building the wall, a tile topples over. What should be done?
>Should the tiles be shuffled again? This could seriously delay the
>game, because it often happens that a tile falls while the wall is
>being built.
>
>*** If one player feels very strongly that the entire hand should be
declared
>void, then the hand will have to be redealt. And the players ought to find
>somebody to replace that too-strict person the next time they play! (o_o)
Nevertheless, this is the official rule with card games. I like your reply.
>Feico:
>A player draws from the wall before his turn.
>
>*** Make the player put it back. Make sure that the tile is taken by the
>person it was supposed to be taken by. No penalty.
But he has seen that tile. I prefer Sarah's reply: he should keep the tile until it is his turn to draw from the wall. Penalty: in the meantime he cannot claim a discarded tile.
It means that players will not get the tile that was destined to them.
For example: West takes, before his turn, the 6th top tile, South
takes, in turn, the 6th bottom tile. South's discard is not claimed.
When they had played correctly, the top and bottom tile would have
been dealt the other way round, but IMO this does not really matter
since nobody knows in advance what the tiles will be.
>
>Feico:
>A player takes the wrong tile from the wall, for example from the live
>wall after melding a Kong. Actually this does not matter much, because
>nobody knows in advance what the tiles will be, but it is a violation
>of the rules.
>
>*** If noticed in time, make the player put it back with no penalty.
No penalty? That's unfair, since he has seen the tile, even although it was not intentional.
>If the
>player immediately goes Out on it, disallow it and declare the hand dead,
and
>give the player the False Out penalty.
In that case he'd better not call Out if he realises his error in time.
I repeat what I said before, it should not matter much. Therefore the
player should not correct his error, he should keep the erroneous tile
as if it was the right tile, and he can even be allowed to go out on
that tile.
If a player erroneously takes a tile from the dead wall and goes out,
he gets no bonus for going out on a tile from the dead wall.
If a player melds a kong or a season, takes an extra tile, erroneously
from the live wall, and goes out, well..., perhaps anyhow he can have
a bonus for going out on a tile from the dead wall.
IMO there is even no need to build a wall. You can shuffle the tiles
on the table and pick them at random during the game. We do exactly
that when we play Scrabble or Rummy. In that case it doesn't matter
which tile you take.
>If player
>habitually does that, replace him/her with a player who doesn't constantly
>raise issues with "apparent mistakes that might possibly be intentional
acts."
This is certainly correct. When there are rules, players should abide by the rules (is that correct English?)
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is offering too little and asking too much.
In article ,
actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote:
> Feico Nater wrote:
> For example: a player claims a discarded dot 9 and adds two bamboo 9
> to it. Obviously he had confused dots and bamboos. The error is
> noticed by an opponent and the claim is void. No penalty, the player
> has shown his tiles, this is sufficient punishment.
> It could be that the offending player actually has two dot 9 as well.
> In that case it should be allowed that he melds a pung of dots. No
> penalty.
> However, what should be done when the game continues and the error is
> noticed afterwards?
> Tom wrote:
> *** For a moment I'm replying based on what I think is logical and right,
> rather than opening the books to see what they say.
> In the case above, I think the player who gets caught sufficiently
afterwards
> ought to be penalized by having his hand declared dead. He can continue to
> draw and discard but he cannot go Out.
By Cofa: I think the following principles may apply to the mistake issue raised by Feico:
(a) Some acts are allowed or restricted or forbidden by some rules. If an act is described in a rule, we deal with it according to the rule. If an act is not described in a rule, players are free to deal with it the way they want, provided that no any other rule is violated.
(b) In most rules, they simply don't deal with MISTAKEs. If a mistake does happen, all players have the duty to point it out right away (if they do notice it), it must then be corrected. There is no penalty because the rules do not provide any.
(c) If the mistake is NOT noticed as it happens and the play continues, then the play contines as it would according to the rules.
(d) If the mistake is noticed at a later time, the play still continues and the mistake should be ignored (This, could be further explained by these two examples: (1) If a player drew a tile in a wrong turn, the mistake should be ignored, and the play continues as if the mistake has never happened. (2) If a player disclosed a wrong set, the mistake is to be ignored as well -- BUT, other rules describe that that player will not be able to win on that wrong set. So you see, you don't need to deal with a /genuine/ mistake if it is not noticed when it happens.)
(e) Whether his hand should be declared dead or otherwise, shall be dealt with according to other rules.
>
> Feico:
> A player draws from the wall before his turn.
> Tom wrote:
> *** Make the player put it back. Make sure that the tile is taken by the
> person it was supposed to be taken by. No penalty.
By Cofa:
(f) The above is an example as described in Para.(b) above.
>
> Feico:
> A player takes the wrong tile from the wall, for example from the live
> wall after melding a Kong. Actually this does not matter much, because
> nobody knows in advance what the tiles will be, but it is a violation
> of the rules.
>
> *** If noticed in time, make the player put it back with no penalty. If the
> player immediately goes Out on it, disallow it and declare the hand dead,
and
> give the player the False Out penalty. If not going Out on it and the error
> was not noticed until too late, let it go, with no penalty.
By Cofa:
(g) If a mistake (picking a wrong tile from the wall) is noticed right away,
correct it with no penalty -- see Para.(b) above.
(h) If the player makes two mistakes in a row and it is noticed only at the 2nd mistake (i.e. Picking a wrong tile - NOT noticed. Winning on that wrongly picked tile - Noticed. Assuming the wrongly picked tile can form a perfect winning hand.) ALL mistake should be corrected right away, no penalty is provided. That means, the principle of Para.(b) shall again apply.
(i) What if, in these two mistake (as in Para.(h) above), the winning is declared on a hand which is NOT a winning hand (e.g., one of the sets are in wrong combination). Well, in this scenario, depending on how a rule may define (see Para.(j) below), the principle of Para.(b) shall again apply. What do you folks think?
(j) In International Mahjong Rules, the rule regarding the Charged Hand ("False Out") has by-passed this "mistake principle". It reads: "Art. 33.4. A player may disclose all of his Pies only if he possesses a winning hand. If a player has declared Win and, or otherwise, has disclosed all his Pies but it is found that the hand virtually does not meet the requirements of a winning hand, he is defined as having made a "Charged Hand". A Charged Hand so made is irrevocable and is irrelevant to other stipulations regarding the priority or possiblility allowing a player to declare Win." Of course, there is penalty provided for the Charged Hand.
Tom continued:
If player
> habitually does that, replace him/her with a player who doesn't constantly
> raise issues with "apparent mistakes that might possibly be intentional
acts."
>
By Cofa:
I 100% agree.
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On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:06:11 GMT, nater001@wxs.nl (Feico Nater) wrote:
>While building the wall, a tile topples over. What should be done?
>Should the tiles be shuffled again? This could seriously delay the
>game, because it often happens that a tile falls while the wall is
>being built.
Take several tiles from several different sections of the wall, shuffle them, and rebuild. The delay is small, but the knowledge of the exposed tile becomes much less useful.
"Live life with Heart."
Alan Kwan / tarot@notme.netvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
(please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address)
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:10:53 GMT, "Perhaps a Princess..." wrote in rec.games.mahjong:
>> A player draws from the wall before his turn.
>
>He holds onto that tile until it IS his turn. That is his pick. this is
>as likely to hurt as help.
And he forfeits his right to claim a discarded tile.
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://home.wxs.nl/~taaleffect
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is offering too little and asking too much.
Hi.
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:10:53 GMT, "Perhaps a Princess..." wrote:
>> While building the wall, a tile topples over. What should be done?
>> Should the tiles be shuffled again? This could seriously delay the
>> game, because it often happens that a tile falls while the wall is
>> being built.
>
>We pull a tile off of each of the other three walls, shuffle the four
>together upside down, and then replace them.
I think it's harder to shuffle 4 tiles than to shuffle 12 ...
"Live life with Heart."
Alan Kwan / tarot@notme.netvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
(please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address)
Alan Kwan wrote:
> I think it's harder to shuffle 4 tiles than to shuffle 12 ...
Huh? I don't understand your answer...
Sarah
sarah@eskimo.com
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:19:53 GMT, "Perhaps a Princess..." wrote:
>Alan Kwan wrote:
>
>> I think it's harder to shuffle 4 tiles than to shuffle 12 ...
>
>Huh? I don't understand your answer...
Just like it's 'easier' to shuffle a deck of 52 playing cards than 2 cards ...
"Live life with Heart."
Alan Kwan / tarot@notme.netvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
(please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address)
Alan Kwan wrote:
> Just like it's 'easier' to shuffle a deck of 52 playing cards than 2
> cards ...
I guess that depends who you are. I can not shuffle a deck of 52 cards no matter what I do. 2 is easy.
Sarah
sarah@eskimo.com
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:15:33 GMT, "Perhaps a Princess..." wrote:
>Alan Kwan wrote:
>
>> Just like it's 'easier' to shuffle a deck of 52 playing cards than 2
>> cards ...
>
>I guess that depends who you are. I can not shuffle a deck of 52 cards
>no matter what I do. 2 is easy.
>
>Sarah
>sarah@eskimo.com
^_^
I don't think anyone who can satisfactorily shuffle two cards in plain view of all would not be able to do a better job with 52. ^_^
"Live life with Heart."
Alan Kwan / tarot@notme.netvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
(please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address)
Alan Kwan wrote:
> ^_^
> I don't think anyone who can satisfactorily shuffle two cards in plain
> view of all would not be able to do a better job with 52. ^_^
You've met one now :)
Two cards I can shuffle in hand. I can't handle 52 (my hands are too small) so I shuffle them on the table like Mah-jongg tiles.
Sarah
sarah@eskimo.com