Alan Kwan wrote:
> "Tile-matching games" should refer to the general category of games
in
> which matching tiles are removed from some formation. Even if Turtle
> is the first tile-matching game, it is not the
tile-matching game.
> Using "tile-matching games" when one means Turtle is as imprecise (and
> possibly misleading) as using "card games" when one means Bridge.
Magic: The Gathering and all of its imitators are quite happily referred to as collectible trading card games.
Perhaps. Call them Mahjongg-tile matching games?
Sarah Heacock
sarah@eskimo.com
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:24:00 GMT, "Perhaps a Princess..." <sarah@eskimo.com>wrote:
>Alan Kwan wrote:
>
>> "Tile-matching games" should refer to the general category of games in
>> which matching tiles are removed from some formation. Even if Turtle
>> is the first tile-matching game, it is not the
tile-matching game.
>> Using "tile-matching games" when one means Turtle is as imprecise (and
>> possibly misleading) as using "card games" when one means Bridge.
>
>Magic: The Gathering and all of its imitators are quite happily referred
>to as collectible trading card games.
>
>Perhaps. Call them Mahjongg-tile matching games?
Let me clarify. "Tile-matching games" or "mahjong-tile matching games" are OK names IMO for referring to a collection of games, but that still leaves us with a need for a name for a specific game "Turtle" ("Shanghai").
"Live life with Heart."
Alan Kwan / tarot@notme.netvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot
(hard-core game reviews)
(please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address)
J.R. Fitch wrote:
P&C's description makes it sound like it was the model for Tetris, no?
*** I don't think so. Tetris is a 2D version of a puzzle toy I had when I was a kid. Various shapes made from squares stuck together, which must fit snugly together without gaps. This "Tortoise" game requires the use of numbers which correspond to column numbers.
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com
Actsearch@aol.com
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) writes:
>J.R. Fitch wrote:
>P&C's description makes it sound like it was the model for Tetris, no?
>*** I don't think so. Tetris is a 2D version of a puzzle toy I had when I was
>a kid. Various shapes made from squares stuck together, which must fit snugly
>together without gaps. This "Tortoise" game requires the use of numbers
which
>correspond to column numbers.
This Turtle game is identical to the King Solitaire played with ordinary cards.
Klaus O K
>From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
>> This "Tortoise" game requires the use of numbers which
>>correspond to column numbers.
>
>This Turtle game is identical to the King Solitaire played with ordinary
>cards.
"Catching the Tortoise," you mean. Interesting. I'll look up that King
Solitaire game...
Thanks for the tip, Klaus
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com
Actsearch@aol.com
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
I had written:
>*** The reason, I assume, for your choice of the name "Turtle" must be
the
>website story which was written by the original Shanghai producer, in which he
>says Shanghai was based on "an ancient solitaire game called 'The Turtle,'"
>right?
Alan Kwan responded:
Or rather, it is based on the description of the game in Mr. KAN Yi-Ching's book, p.
151. Whether his source of the game traces back to Activision's Shanghai or not is beyond
my knowledge. He called it (in juet ping) "caak3 paai2 gwai1" .
*** Is Mr. Kan's book in English or Chinese? If English, I am compelled to try to obtain a copy. What's the original publishing date? If before 1986, then you have indeed found something that describes such a game predating Shanghai. And does "caak3 paai2 gwai1" translate to "The Turtle"? If so, that certainly is confusing, given the 'Tortoise' game described by Perlmen & Chan.
Alan Kwan continued:
"Tile-matching games" cover more than Turtle. Even /if/ Turtle was indeed
designed by some Activition staff, I see it as a good thing when other designers borrowed
the concept and designed other "tile-matching games" such as Shisenso and
Toride. I won't call a game that has as many elements added as Mah Jong Wall an
"imitator". Just as Puyo and Tetris Attack are not Tetris imitators.
*** I agree that Mah Jong Wall joins Shisenso and Toride as something sufficiently different from Shanghai that it need not be lumped in with the Shanghai imitators. However, I don't really see a need to have a special name for "games similar to Shisenso, Toride, and Mah Jong Wall" separate from a special name for "games that imitate Shanghai." As for "Tetris Attack," that is clearly not a Tetris imitator but rather a Tetris /sequel/.
Alan continued:
"Tile-matching games" should refer to the general category of games in which
matching tiles are removed from some formation.
*** Yes. So? It seems to me to satisfy the need, does it not? It works to describe Shanghai and its imitators, and to a certain extent could even loosely be used to include Shisenso, Toride, and Mah Jong Wall.
Alan continued:
Even if Turtle is the first tile-matching game, it is not the tile-matching game.
Using "tile-matching games" when one means Turtle is as imprecise (and possibly
misleading) as using "card games" when one means Bridge.
*** I need to understand you precisely. By "Turtle," I assume you mean "the game described by Mr. Kan, which is also how Shanghai and its imitators are played" -- and /not/ "Catching the Tortoise" as described by Perlmen & Chan? Certainly, if one is talking about Bridge specifically, it would be imprecise to say "card games." Similarly, if one is talking about Taipei (which is not precisely the same thing as Shanghai, even though it is obviously an imitation of it), it would be imprecise to say "Shanghai." If one is talking about Nels Anderson's so-called "Mahjong," then it would be imprecise to say "Mah-Jongg." Precisely under what conditions do you need a special term for "games precisely like Shanghai and its imitators, not including Shisenso, Toride, and Mah Jong Wall"? Under precisely what conditions does the term "tile-matching games" insufficiently delineate those games from Mah-Jongg?
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com
Actsearch@aol.com
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
On 26 Jun 1998 21:15:30 GMT, actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote:
>*** Is Mr. Kan's book in English or Chinese?
Chinese.
> What's the original publishing date?
February 1984.
>And does "caak3 paai2 gwai1" translate to "The Turtle"?
gwai1 is "turtle". caak3 is "demolish". paai2 is, of course, "tile". Translates to "demolish a turtle of tiles".
> If so, that certainly is confusing, given the 'Tortoise' game described by Perlmen & Chan.
I think the name "turtle" should be given to the tile-matching game, since the original configuration is intended to look like a turtle. I don't think it's confusing if we stick to the full name "catching the tortoise" as described by P&C. In any case, the P&C "game" is merely a solitaire of pure luck and no strategy.
>*** I agree that Mah Jong Wall joins Shisenso and Toride as something
>sufficiently different from Shanghai that it need not be lumped in with the
>Shanghai imitators. However, I don't really see a need to have a special name
>for "games similar to Shisenso, Toride, and Mah Jong Wall" separate from a
>special name for "games that imitate Shanghai."
I agree that they, including Turtle/Shanghai, should be collectively called "tile-matching games".
> As for "Tetris Attack," that is clearly not a Tetris imitator but rather a Tetris /sequel/.
It is really no Tetris imitator nor sequel. The original Japanese version is called "Panel de Pon" ("Pon" is our familiar mahjong triplet call), featuring cute fairies instead of Yoshi characters. It has nothing to do with Tetris at all. The only reason that the overseas version is called "Tetris Attack" is marketing (name recognition).
>Precisely under what conditions do you need a special term for "games
precisely
>like Shanghai and its imitators, not including Shisenso, Toride, and Mah Jong
>Wall"? Under precisely what conditions does the term "tile-matching
games"
>insufficiently delineate those games from Mah-Jongg?
My point is that we need a name specifically for the game Turtle/Shanghai when the name "Shanghai" is to be avoided for some reason. We see the problem that the name "mahjong" is often used. "Tile matching game" does not adequately serve this purpose, obviously.
"Live life with Heart."
Alan Kwan / tarot@notme.netvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot
(hard-core game reviews)
(please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address)
Alan Kwan wrote,
On 26 Jun 1998 21:15:30 GMT, actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote:
>*** Is Mr. Kan's book in English or Chinese?
Chinese.
> What's the original publishing date?
February 1984.
>And does "caak3 paai2 gwai1" translate to "The Turtle"?
gwai1 is "turtle". caak3 is "demolish". paai2 is, of course, "tile". Translates to "demolish a turtle of tiles".
> If so, that certainly is confusing, given the 'Tortoise' game described by Perlmen & Chan.
I think the name "turtle" should be given to the tile-matching game, since the original configuration is intended to look like a turtle. I don't think it's confusing if we stick to the full name "catching the tortoise" as described by P&C. In any case, the P&C "game" is merely a solitaire of pure luck and no strategy.
*** Alan, then you are saying that Kan's book, written in 1984 (two years before the original Shanghai was released) describes a game called "Demolishing the Turtle of Tiles" (as opposed to "Catching the Tortoise"), which plays identical to Shanghai? Since I cannot hope to read the Chinese book, I have to rely on you for this info (and from our long association here at the newsgroup, I have no reason to disbelieve you). Does the book show a picture of "the turtle" built from tiles, by any chance, and if so, does it resemble the original Shanghai layout? Can you send me a photocopy of the pertinent section of the book or help me obtain a copy of the book? I know I'm asking a lot...
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com
Actsearch@aol.com
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/
On 28 Jun 1998 05:13:36 GMT, actsearch@aol.com (ACTSEARCH) wrote:
>*** Alan, then you are saying that Kan's book, written in 1984 (two years
>before the original Shanghai was released) describes a game called "Demolishing
>the Turtle of Tiles" (as opposed to "Catching the Tortoise"), which
plays
>identical to Shanghai? Since I cannot hope to read the Chinese book, I have to
>rely on you for this info (and from our long association here at the newsgroup,
>I have no reason to disbelieve you). Does the book show a picture of "the
>turtle" built from tiles, by any chance, and if so, does it resemble the
>original Shanghai layout? Can you send me a photocopy of the pertinent section
>of the book or help me obtain a copy of the book? I know I'm asking a lot...
The page describes a game that looks suspiciously like the origin of Shanghai, if not Shanghai itself. The player builds a turtle-shaped structure with mahjong tiles, then remove matching pairs according to the rules in Shanghai. There are possible minor differences such as a minor difference in the original configuration, and that tiles are possibly not turned face-up until they become accessible. There are no diagrams.
I can quote the relevent page in Big5 encoding, if you need that. Or I can send you a copy of the book for HK$42 + postage.
"Live life with Heart."
Alan Kwan / tarot@notme.netvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot
(hard-core game reviews)
(please remove anti-spam section "notme." from mailing address)
>From: tarot@notme.netvigator.com (Alan Kwan)
>I can quote the relevent page in Big5 encoding, if you need that.
>Or I can send you a copy of the book for HK$42 + postage.
Thanks, Alan. To have a copy of the book would probably be better. I'll write you offline.
Tom Sloper
Tom Sloper, Activision
Senior Producer, Shanghai
tsloper@activision.com
Actsearch@aol.com
Now available: SHANGHAI: DYNASTY -- check our website for a preview and free demo:
http://www4.activision.com/games/dynasty/